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标题: what is democracy and its relationship with development [打印本页]

作者: BlueOrange    时间: 5-20-2009 19:28
标题: what is democracy and its relationship with development
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upon talking to jprp, I attach my take home exam about democracy here. It was finished within one day, so it is just a summary based on reading materials. (two days period to finish two questions.)

Answer to Q1 in Part I on democracy:

What is democracy? Although there are various definitions of it, the central idea is that in a democracy “the people” rather than a subset of the people rule. As Lincoln says, it is “a government of the people, by the people, and for the people”. The source of authority or the sovereign of a democracy rests on the people, the demos.  Only when dealing with the question of how this abstract concept is translated into a practical definition, or to say, how the will of the people acts in practice, directly or indirectly, different conceptions varies.

Basically, there are two types of concepts of democracy: procedural or substantive. A substantive kind of definition determines a democracy in terms of the outcomes that it produces, such as political justice, economic justice and social justice; a procedural kind of definition determines a democracy in terms of its institutions and procedures, such as elections. The two types of definition can have some overlaps. Usually a procedural definition is a minimalist one, and a substantive definition can be a maximalist one, but it is not all the case. In general, minimalist measures may be able to answer more questions since there is less correlation between their components and those of the study questions. One of minimalist definitions of democracy is provided by Schmitter and Karl in 1974: “Modern political democracy is a system of governance in which rulers are held accountable for their actions in the public realm by citizens, acting indirectly through the competition and cooperation of their elected representatives.” It has the two basic dimensions of democracy suggested by Robert Dahl –inclusion and contestation.

  Beyond that, Tilly in his book Democracy points out four main types of definitions: constitutional, substantive, procedural, and process-oriented. A constitutional approach focuses on laws a regime enacts, but large discrepancies between announced principles and daily practice often make it misleading. A substantive approach focuses on the conditions of life and fulfilled political and civil rights in a regime.  A procedural definition looks at government practices, especially elections to determine if a regime is democratic or not. A process-oriented approach determines a minimum set of processes that must be continuously held in motion to qualify a democracy. Robert Dahl’s “Polyarchal democracy” is a process-oriented one, which requires six institutions in place to be a democracy– elected officials; free, fair, and frequent elections; freedom of expression; alternative sources of information; associational autonomy; and inclusive citizenship (Tilly, Democracy, p. 10). By the same process-oriented approach, Tilly himself suggests four criteria of judging a regime to be democratic: whether the political relations between the state and its citizens are broad, equal, protected, and mutually binding consultation. Breadth refers to the extent of citizen inclusion for political rights. Equality refers to the level of equality found among and within categories of citizens of a society. Protection refers to the degree of protection against the state’s arbitrary power. Mutually binding consultation refers to the degree to which the state delivers benefits to its citizenry.

Linz and Stepan define democracy this way: “Democracy denotes ... a system of government that meets three essential conditions: meaningful and extensive competition among individuals and groups (especially political parties) for all effective positions of government power, at regular intervals and excluding the use of force; a highly inclusive level of political participation in the selection of leaders and policies, at least through regular and fair elections, such that no major (adult) social group is excluded; and a level of civil and political liberties--freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom to form and join organizations--sufficient to ensure the integrity of political competition and participation.” It summarizes the main elements of definitions by Dahl and Tilly. Compared to Schmitter and Karl’s definition, it has the additional third element: civil and political liberties, or protection of rights, with which someone may argue the definition defines a liberal democracy, not a democracy in general.

When discussing the quality of democracy and democratic consolidation, some writers also implicate what constitute a democracy. Usually, they add more standards.  For example, Larry Diamond and Leonardo Morlino in their “The Quality of Democracy” (2004) define a good democracy as “first a broadly legitimated regime that satisfies citizen expectations of governance. Second, a good democracy is one in which its citizens, associations, and communities enjoy extensive liberty and political equality.  Third, in a good democracy the citizens themselves have the sovereign power to evaluate whether the government provides liberty and equality according to the rule of law. Citizens and their organizations and parties participate and compete to hold elected officials accountable for their policies and actions. They monitor the efficiency and fairness of the application of the laws, the efficacy of government decisions, and the political responsibility and responsiveness of elected officials. Governmental institutions also hold one another accountable before the law and the constitution. It is a substantive sense of definition, with outcome standards in place and additional emphasis on the existence of rule of law.  Linz and Stepan point out five arenas a consolidated democracy should have conquered: free and autonomous civil society, free and inclusive electoral contestation (political society or political rights), rule of law, rational-legal bureaucratic state apparatus, institutionalized market (economic society or economic freedom).  More criteria are suggested for evaluation: free and autonomous civil society and economic society, and a rational-legal bureaucracy.  Furthermore, Jan Kubik suggests only when the boundaries between the state, civil society, economy, political society and domestic society are well distinguished, and with sufficient communications between each other, does a democracy exist.

There are three mainly used measures of democracy – PACL, Polity IV, and Freedom House. Freedom House (2005) provides an annual measure of ‘global freedom’ for 192 countries and eighteen territories from 1972 to 2004.  The measurements provided by Freedom House are based on both substantive and procedural definitions. When it evaluates the extent to which a citizenry enjoy political rights and civil liberties, it incorporates some substantive judgments; when it measures electoral procedure, it looks for procedural elements. PACL, produced by Przeworski, Alvarez, Chelibub, and Limongi, defines democracies as “in which who govern are selected through contested elections” (P 2000). It has four rules for operationalizing their concept: if the chief executive is elected, if the legislature is elected, if there is more than one party competing in the elections, and if an alternation in power under identical electoral rules has taken place. It emphasizes on elections and contestations. Polity IV is an annual measure of “democracy” and “autocracy” for 184 countries from 1800 to 2003. A country’s Polity Score is based on five different attributes or dimensions: the competitiveness of executive recruitment, the openness of executive recruitment,  the constraints that exist on the executive, the regulation of political participation, and the competitiveness of political participation. Together, these dimensions capture Dahl’s notion of both contestation and inclusion. PACL and Polity IV are a minimalist definition. PACL is on dichotomy and the rest two are continuous.  


     The relationship between democracy and wealth has been in a long time debate in politics. In ancient Greece, Aristotle says a society with a predominant middle class and a widespread wealth is a lasting polity, since the most trustworthy person everywhere is the mediator, and the middle class is a sort of mediator between the poor and the rich. A society united on the majority will last longer than the one in which the extremities in distrust of one another rule. (Aristotle, Politics, 1984) It implicates that a certain level of wealth and certain economic structures are required for a country to be democratic. Later the enlightenment thinkers believe technological advancements and economical changes will enable change in people's moral and cultural values, and political and social insititutions in society. It implicates that economical advances can bring about political change, mostly, in a progressive way.

    In the 1950s and 1960s, modernization theory brings out the theses that all societies pass through the same historical stages of economic development following the example of the Western Europe, and countries are more likely both to become democratic and to stay democratic with economical development. Although the theory was originally developed by economists and economic historians, it was taken up quickly by political scientists.  In 1959, Lipset raised a hypothesis that is whether a high level of development is a precondition for the emergence and maintenance of democratic rule. The empirical evidence they have is that there are a higher proportion of democracies among rich countries than among poor countries.

   The mechanism linking development with democracy suggested by classic modernization theory is based on functionalism which stresses the interdependence of the institutions in society and their interactions in maintaining social unity. Especially the division of labor theory produced by Emile Durkheim points that in a capitalist society, with the complex division of labour, certain political and social institution change would be needed to maintain order. Basically, modernizaton theory argues that as a country develops, highly advanced technological level and complex production relationship require the active cooperation of employees and autonomy of the direct producers. As a result, the society can no longer be effectively run by the central command. Also, new groups and assoications emerge and so does civil society. They form a social base being able to bring down dictatorship. (Przeworski’s summary in 2000, from Principles of Comparative Politics by Clark etc., 2009, p.170)
There are some more specific explanations in modernization theory. Barrington Moore in 1966 makes a more powerful explanation that in the nineteenth century, the commercialization of the agriculture in England made peasants landless, at the same time coalitioned the landed upper classs with the bourgeoisie, and empowered them with an economic base to balance the power of the crown. Eventually it helped to build up a representative democracy.  Bates and Lien (1985) argue the increased mobility of assets in England at that time enabled the gentry to hide their assets from state predation. The crown, in need of economic support from economic elites, had to negotiate with them in order to gain revenues. During the process the power of Parliament which represents the interests of economic elites was strengthened. Clark etc. summarize the effect of mobilizing assets ensembles that of the credible exit threat in a Exit, Voice, and Loyalty game. (Clark, 2009)

Modernization thoery is challenged by Adam Przeworski and Fernando Limongi in 1997. They think the higher frequence of democracy among rich countries than among poor countries is not because development increases the likelihood that poor countries will transition to democracy, but because development makes democracy more likely to sustain once established. They call the second mechnism an “exogenous” thoery, the first mechanism an “endogenous” thoery. (Boix and Stokes, 2003)

The causal mechnisem behind the exogenous thoery, brought out by Przeworski and Limongi, is that because people prefer to stay in democracies with developed economy. Why? Because in democracies, everyone can expect to get moderate share of total income, while in dictatorships, the victor can win all of the income but the loser can lose all. And the marginal utility of consumption is lower at higher levels of consumption; thus the gain from winning the struggle for dictatorship is smaller.  In poor democracies, the value of becoming a dictator is greater – you have chance to win more income,  and the cost of destroying captial stock is lower – the economy can catch up faster after the war for dictatorship. In rich democracies, the gain from getting all rather than a part of total income is smaller and the recovery from destrution of war is slower. So the people are more willing to struggle for dictatorship in poor countries than in rich countries. (Boix and Stokes, 2003)

But Carles Boix and Susan C. Stokes in 2003 reject Przeworski and Limongi’s theory. They point out P and L fail to provide a theory linking development to democracy only under the condition of an existing democracy. If only exogenous thoery works, in such a society there must be some factors which only work to sustain a system of democracy, but not work to transition the same society from dictatorship to democracy earlier. P and L didn’t explain those factors. Thus Boix and Stokes reembrace modernization theory: development is both an endogenous and exogenous cause of democracy.

Furthermore, using the same graph presented by P and Lof the relationship between the probability of regime transition and the level of capital income from 1950 to 1990, they provide a different explanation of data. The probablity of transition to democracy declines sharply at income level above $7000, except that most of time it increases with income.  They point out P and L draw wrong inference from the fact that there is low probablity of transition at high levels of development. It is because many dictatorships have already undergone transition to democracy during development before reaching the income level of $7000, the number of remaining dictatorships is small when the world becomes rich. And because the number of them is small, the possible number of transitions is also small; thus the probablity of transitions is prone to big variations due to small events, which leads the inference draw from it to be highly vulnerable.  Then they incorporate the data from 1800 to 1949 for their model to take into account the facts that most democracies transitioned themselves before 1950,  that the distribution of regimes was not random but highly correlated with income in 1950, and that the distribution of growth patterns is not random. They found endogenous effect significant.  They also include more controling variables in the model to see if wealth is only one of mulitple causes to determine the causal relationship.
Boix offers an explanation of the casual mechanism between development and democracy under the new model. The income level itself doesn’t influence the relationship directly. It takes effect by changing other social structures in the society.  As countries develop, incomes become more equally distributed and wealth become widespread. The poor and the middle class would have more desire and power to ask for participating in ruling, which would pressure the society towards democratization. (Robert Dahl also mentions this, from H&K 1995, p.27) Also, in a democracy with more equal income distribution the rich would be deprived less of their income by the redistributive tax policy favored by the median voter than in a dictatorship with unequal income distribution. The rich prefers to democratization and also to stay in a democracy.  It is similar to Aristotle’s theory. (Boix and Stokes, 2003)

In 1991, Lipset, Seong, and Torres found an “N-curve” relationship between authoritarianism and economic development. The probability of non-democratic regimes decreased with development among lower- and upper-income countries, while increased in a middle range of countries. (Haggard &Kaufman,1995) In sum, the relationship between development and regime type seems indeterminate among middle-income countries. (Huntington, The Third Wave) This is also the case in P and L’s graph on the probability of regime transition against income.

H and K then suggest that the stability of authoritarian regimes depends both on economic performance in the long term and economic conditions in the short run. An economic crisis, a sharp, not self-correcting deterioration in aggregate economic performance which may not cause the collapse of authoritarian regimes, did appear to accelerate it. It poses challenges both to policy and to the collation of interests that benefited from the policy status quo. Authoritarian regimes are more dependent than democracies on their capacity to deliver material resources to key supporters. Thus economic crises can play a pivotal role on dismantling them. And it also shapes the terms on which authoritarian governments withdraw.  An authoritarian regime withdraw during a non-crisis transition is better positioned to establish incoming institutional rules that favor policy continuity, including limits on political competition, than during a crisis transition.

The effect of democracy on economic development is still in debate among political scholars. In theory, there are two opposite arguments.  In the nineteenth century liberal and socialist thinkers agree that democracy, based on universal suffrage, threaten property rights and therefore capitalism. In the postwar period several scholars argue that dictatorships are more effective at increasing saving and investment rates and at preventing political elites from rent seeking. On the opposite of those arguments, some claim that democracies lead to higher growth rates. Democracies constrain the confiscatory temptations of rulers and thereby secure property rights. They increase political accountability and reduce corruption and waste. They are more likely to provide public goods essential to economic development. From an empirical point of view, Przeworski and Limongi report the evidence that the type of political regime matters for growth is ambiguous. (Boix and Stokes, 2003)
Przeworski et al(2000) confirm the thesis that dictatorships have more variation in economic performance than democracies. They find that the standard deviation in economic growth rates between 1950 and 1990 was 7.04 for dictatorships and just 4.85 for democracies. Both economic miracles and disasters are prevalent in dictatorships.

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作者: lihlii    时间: 5-21-2009 14:48
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
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不同意第一段里提到的定义。自由主义的民主不是 ruled by all the people,而 是主权在民,就是说每个公民都有一份政治利权(一种属权),而不是说都有治 权。多数治理,多数统治是原始意义上的民主,而不是自由民主。赞同的一点是, 民主制体现在公民的意愿自由表达,并得到制度性的体现。

【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: upon talking to jprp, I attach my take home exam about democracy here. It was finished within one day, so it is just a summary based on reading materials. (two days period to finish two questions.)
: Answer to Q1 in Part I on democracy:
: What is democracy? Although there are various definitions of it, the central idea is that in a democ
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: BlueOrange    时间: 5-21-2009 21:12
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

我说的就是这个意思。 你把我的第一段读完再评。
说的是主权在民。是sovereignty, not government itself. 但具体如何管理,肯定不是指让全民参政的。那种民主政治,只有在城邦国家才可以存在。现代国家,肯定是只有代议制的。

说的主权在全民,是指不是只有白人啊,男人啊,才有参政权,选举权。不过这个定义,就把古希腊的雅典民主排除出去了,因为当时战俘变成的奴隶,是没有参政权的。(他们只有这一种奴隶,和世界上其他情况不同)



【 在 lihlii 的大作中提到: 】
: 不同意第一段里提到的定义。自由主义的民主不是 ruled by all the people,而 是主权在民,就是说每个公民都有一份政治利权(一种属权),而不是说都有治 权。多数治理,多数统治是原始意义上的民主,而不是自由民主。赞同的一点是, 民主制体现在公民的意愿自由表达,并得到制度性的体现。
: 【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: (以下引言省略...)

--
※ 来源:.一路BBS http://yilubbs.com [FROM: 69.139.0.0]

※ 修改:.BlueOrange 于 May 22 01:41:37 修改本文.[FROM: 69.139.0.0]

作者: BlueOrange    时间: 5-21-2009 21:12
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

我说的就是这个意思。 你把我的第一段读完再评。
说的是主权在民。是sovereignty, not government itself. 但具体如何管理,肯定不是指让全民参政的。那种民主政治,只有在城邦国家才可以存在。现代国家,肯定是只有代议制的。

说的主权在全民,是指不是只有白人啊,男人啊,才有参政权,选举权。不过这个定义,就把古希腊的雅典民主排除出去了,因为当时战俘变成的奴隶,是没有参政权的。(他们只有这一种奴隶,和世界上其他情况不同)



【 在 lihlii 的大作中提到: 】
: 不同意第一段里提到的定义。自由主义的民主不是 ruled by all the people,而 是主权在民,就是说每个公民都有一份政治利权(一种属权),而不是说都有治 权。多数治理,多数统治是原始意义上的民主,而不是自由民主。赞同的一点是, 民主制体现在公民的意愿自由表达,并得到制度性的体现。
: 【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: (以下引言省略...)

--
※ 来源:.一路BBS http://yilubbs.com [FROM: 69.139.0.0]

※ 修改:.BlueOrange 于 May 22 01:41:37 修改本文.[FROM: 69.139.0.0]

作者: Bullybird    时间: 5-21-2009 22:09
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

照你这个主权在民,美国在妇女和黑人有选举权之前也不能叫民主体制了?

【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: 我说的就是这个意思。 你把我的第一段读完再评。
: 说的是主权在民。是sovereignty, not government itself. 但具体如何管理,肯定不是指让全民参政的。那种民主政治,只有在城邦国家才可以存在。现代国家,肯定是只有代议制的。
: 说的主权在全民,是指不是只有白人啊,男人啊,才有参政权,选举权。不过这个定义,就把古希腊的雅典民主排
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: Bullybird    时间: 5-21-2009 22:09
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

照你这个主权在民,美国在妇女和黑人有选举权之前也不能叫民主体制了?

【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: 我说的就是这个意思。 你把我的第一段读完再评。
: 说的是主权在民。是sovereignty, not government itself. 但具体如何管理,肯定不是指让全民参政的。那种民主政治,只有在城邦国家才可以存在。现代国家,肯定是只有代议制的。
: 说的主权在全民,是指不是只有白人啊,男人啊,才有参政权,选举权。不过这个定义,就把古希腊的雅典民主排
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: ksyrium    时间: 5-21-2009 22:22
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

同问。在1900年的美国,妇女是没有选举权的;在2000年的中国,妇女是有选举权的,难道能说今天的天朝比1900年的美国更加民主?

【 在 Bullybird 的大作中提到: 】
: 照你这个主权在民,美国在妇女和黑人有选举权之前也不能叫民主体制了?
: 【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: : 我说的就是这个意思。 你把我的第一段读完再评。
: : 说的是主权在民。是sovereignty, not government itself. 但具体如何管理,肯定不是指让全民参政的。那种民主政治,只有在城邦国家才可以存在。现代国家,肯定
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: ksyrium    时间: 5-21-2009 22:22
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

同问。在1900年的美国,妇女是没有选举权的;在2000年的中国,妇女是有选举权的,难道能说今天的天朝比1900年的美国更加民主?

【 在 Bullybird 的大作中提到: 】
: 照你这个主权在民,美国在妇女和黑人有选举权之前也不能叫民主体制了?
: 【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: : 我说的就是这个意思。 你把我的第一段读完再评。
: : 说的是主权在民。是sovereignty, not government itself. 但具体如何管理,肯定不是指让全民参政的。那种民主政治,只有在城邦国家才可以存在。现代国家,肯定
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: lihlii    时间: 5-22-2009 13:17
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
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ksyrium 不是在说假话吗?中共国男人,女人有选举权吗?

Bullybird: 照你这个主权在民,美国在妇女和黑人有选举权之前也不能叫民主体制了?

lihlii: 一个民主社会,不等于不存在侵犯民权的制度。当我们讨论民主制度的具体实现的时候,这是一个连续的谱系,从最专制的社会,到最自由民主的社会,存在多种不同程度的自由民主制度。

美国在女性和黑人有选举权以前,这个具有自由民主的宪政基础的制度中,存在许多不符合自由民主原则的实践。美国宪法并没有排除女性和黑人的选举权,而是由具体的选举法来规范有选举权的公民范围。而后,通过几个宪法修正案,用否言方式禁止政府侵犯选举权[1]。

其实女性的选举权,是随着女性的公民化身份而实现的。前提是女性受教育的利权,走出家庭参与社会活动的利权的逐步实现。在女性没有实现独立的公民地位的时候,选举权这项政治利权是无从落实的。这正如公民权为何要年满 18 岁成年才具有一样。

女性没有选举权的问题关键在于女性的社会地位低下,不被视为有完全责任能力的独立公民。支那俗话说“不要和女人一般见识”,也是表达出类似的歧视态度。在女性逐步获得和男性接近平等的教育和工作机会以后,女性的公民身份才得以确立。

所以,女性没有选举权的问题,并不违背民主政治的原则。这一不平等的问题,是技术进步从家庭内部解放了女性,自由民主制度又保障了言论,结社,集会等政治自由以后,女权主义兴起,才逐步解决的。

[1] 选举权 http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=选举权&variant=zh-hans

【 在 ksyrium 的大作中提到: 】
: 同问。在1900年的美国,妇女是没有选举权的;在2000年的中国,妇女是有选举权的,难道能说今天的天朝比1900年的美国更加民主?
: 【 在 Bullybird 的大作中提到: 】
: : 照你这个主权在民,美国在妇女和黑人有选举权之前也不能叫民主体制了?
: : (以下引言省略...)
: (以下引言省略...)


※ 修改:.lihlii 于 May 22 17:18:22 修改本文.[FROM: 82.210.0.0]

作者: BlueOrange    时间: 5-22-2009 17:39
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

李立说得对,一个国家是否民主,有一个程度的问题。看样子大家都只看完我文章的第一段。
这里没有编辑文字的功能。我原文有一些加黑体字啊什么便于阅读的东东,copy过来都没有了。

我上个回贴没有说清楚,可能有一定误导的倾向。不是由是否全部人具有选举权来决定一个政体是否民主。说的基本思想是主权在民,是一个国家政体的主导思想,但这个权,具体的落实肯定有不完善的地方,不一定只由选举权来体现。 这个只是从最抽象的程度来给民主一个概括,不可能把它当作具体的标准来判断一个政体是否民主。否则如果只看选举权就能判断一个政体是否民主的话,那么多书和文章,研究项目,不就白做了?我后面写的这么多不就白写了? 而且,即使有全民选举,也不一定是民主,如果一个政党永远执政,而且选举的结果不被执行,被选下台,就是不下台的情况,就是一例。

我文章后面具体谈的如何划分一个政体是否民主,有很多具体的要求。有不同的标准。有的定义是连续性的,可以说一个国家较民主,一个国家较专制。freedom house 和 Polity 两种都是这样。 另外一个measure 的方法- PACL 是一个二分法,不过也是通过打分来评的。打分都是连续性的,不过到一个线就不是民主了而已。民主的基本几点,参与权的范围,是一个,还有权力是否有竞争和轮换,是一个,还有就是基本人权比如言论结社自由等等的保障。

大家要评,至少先看完文章的一半吧。
而且,我发这个文章,不是显摆。我当时贴的时候,就有点犹豫怕人嫌我显摆。不过当时极品正好问到民主和经济发展的关系,而且想到这个问题大家一直在争论,自己刚刚正好写完一篇,就贴出来。我显摆啥,又不是自己的研究成果。而且一天时间写的,英文可能有很多错误,我都不敢看第二遍,当时写完就交了。 不过真要有人还是认为我是显摆,我就不勉强了啊。 你怎么认为是你的事。

【 在 Bullybird 的大作中提到: 】
: 照你这个主权在民,美国在妇女和黑人有选举权之前也不能叫民主体制了?
: 【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: : 我说的就是这个意思。 你把我的第一段读完再评。
: : 说的是主权在民。是sovereignty, not government itself. 但具体如何管理,肯定不是指让全民参政的。那种民主政治,只有在城邦国家才可以存在。现代国家,肯定
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: Faith    时间: 5-22-2009 18:23
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

建议你下次贴英文文章 先给个中文摘要

【 在 BlueOrange (喵呜) 的大作中提到: 】
: 李立说得对,一个国家是否民主,有一个程度的问题。看样子大家都只看完我文章的第一段。
: 这里没有编辑文字的功能。我原文有一些加黑体字啊什么便于阅读的东东,copy过来都没有了。
: 我上个回贴没有说清楚,可能有一定误导的倾向。不是由是否全部人具有选举权来决定一个政体是否民主。说的基本思想是主权在民,是一个国家政体的主导思想,但这个权,具体的落实肯定有不完善的地方,不一定只由选举权来体现。 这个只是从最抽象的程度来给民主一个概括,不可能把它当作具体的标准来判断一个政体是否民主。否则如果只看选举权就能判断一个政体是否民主的话,那么多书和文章,研究项目,不就白做了?我后面写的这么多不就白写了? 而且,即使有全民选举,也不一定是民主,如果一个政党永远执政,而且选举的结果不被执行,被选下台,就是
: ...................

--

作者: BlueOrange    时间: 5-22-2009 18:26
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

我有这份功夫,就不贴英文文章了。当时就是图个方便。

以后汲取教训,再也不贴自己写的烂英文文章了,反正贴了也没人看。

【 在 Faith 的大作中提到: 】
: 建议你下次贴英文文章 先给个中文摘要
: 【 在 BlueOrange (喵呜) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 李立说得对,一个国家是否民主,有一个程度的问题。看样子大家都只看完我文章的第一段。
: : 这里没有编辑文字的功能。我原文有一些加黑体字啊什么便于阅读的东东,copy过来都没有了。
: : 我上个回贴没有说清楚,可能有一定误导的倾向。不是
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: Faith    时间: 5-22-2009 18:31
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

英文摘要也行。

还有BBS不是一个适合讨论学术的地方
而且每个人的知识储备参差不齐,讨论概念性的问题 事倍功半。

【 在 BlueOrange (喵呜) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我有这份功夫,就不贴英文文章了。当时就是图个方便。
: 以后汲取教训,再也不贴自己写的烂英文文章了,反正贴了也没人看。
: 【 在 Faith 的大作中提到: 】
: : 建议你下次贴英文文章 先给个中文摘要
: : (以下引言省略...)


--

作者: BlueOrange    时间: 5-22-2009 18:41
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationship with development
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

另外再说一句,这篇文章回答的问题是阐述政治研究界对民主定义和其与经济的关系的历史和现状。 不包括发表自己的意见。

我其实对那些研究民主和经济关系的大样本统计研究方法,是颇有微词的。说实在的,我不太敢相信他们的研究成果。几百个国家在一起比来比去,时间跨度,一般有从1950-1990 的,还有包括1949年前的,都用GDP 来衡量,实在太粗糙了。通货膨胀的因素考虑了没有,等等等等。。。 而且,这种结果能说明什么问题,对以后要民主化的国家有什么借鉴意义,都没有答案。

大家记住这一点:所有的社科研究成果,都不是绝对真理。不能相信决定论,否定主观能动性。就是在human agency and social structure 之间,一定不要只看到后者的能量。

我说话不算话,再贴一段对这个统计方法的批评的文章啊,也是这次考试的作业。 最开始是谈一些case study 的贡献。

Moore’s classic study on the social origins of democracy and dictatorship portrayed three main players in the rise of democracy, fascism, and communism: the bourgeoisie, the landed class, and the peasantry, in a few cases of nations. In England, with techniques and skills developing, agriculture gradually is commercialized. The commercialization of agriculture in turn deprives peasants of their land and transforms them into the working class in cities forms a new strong class- the bourgeoisie; and gives the landed class a bigger autonomous economic base. The newly formed or strengthened classes struggle to pressure the royal family to share power with them, the outcome of which eventually generate a representative government.
By studying on different cases, Luebbert provides another mechanism for the relationship between democracy and economic performance. He focuses on the economic crisis with its relation to the maintenance of democracy. Like Moore, he finds the middle class, or the bourgeoisies, is the key factor to democracy in the interwar period. Liberal democracy survived in Britain, France, Switzerland, Belgium and Netherlands during the World War I is because before the war the middle class were not divided by religion, language, region, or urban-rural differences. A united middle class was not afraid to incorporate workers into the electoral system.

Other scholars like Rueschemeyer, Stephens, and Collier emphasize more on the role of the working class on the origin of democracy. All in all, it is in ongoing debate of the roles of different classes on democracy’s origin.

As show above, in different contexts, different regions and times, there may be a variety of democratization processes. Different paths may all be able to lead to democracy. We may say no matter what classes play an essential part of generating democracy, it is the balance of power between classes and between civil society and the state that produce democracy. Then the mechanism has nothing special to do with economic growth. Other factors and ways and processes may also be able to bring the balance of power. Generalizations produced by statistical modeling therefore may have limited inference in reality. As MacIntyre mentions, those generalizations may be just about human rationality in general, nothing to do with politics, when deprived contexts.



【 在 BlueOrange 的大作中提到: 】
: upon talking to jprp, I attach my take home exam about democracy here. It was finished within one day, so it is just a summary based on reading materials. (two days period to finish two questions.)
: Answer to Q1 in Part I on democracy:
: What is democracy? Although there are various definitions of it, the central idea is that in a democ
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: BlueOrange    时间: 5-22-2009 18:45
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

嗯。
说实话,也没想到在这里和大家讨论学术。
也猜到这么一大片文章,没几个人能看完。 当时想的是,给有兴趣的人参考一下就行了。也没想和大家辩论。 我没有义务为这些政治学家辩论啊,又不是我自己的观点。

【 在 Faith 的大作中提到: 】
: 英文摘要也行。
: 还有BBS不是一个适合讨论学术的地方
: 而且每个人的知识储备参差不齐,讨论概念性的问题 事倍功半。
: 【 在 BlueOrange (喵呜) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 我有这份功夫,就不贴英文文章了。当时就是图个方便。
: (以下引言省略...)

--

作者: Faith    时间: 5-22-2009 18:54
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationship with development
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

社科领域,统计意义上的结论,往往有很强的主观性。

【 在 BlueOrange (喵呜) 的大作中提到: 】
: 另外再说一句,这篇文章回答的问题是阐述政治研究界对民主定义和其与经济的关系的历史和现状。 不包括发表自己的意见。
: 我其实对那些研究民主和经济关系的大样本统计研究方法,是颇有微词的。说实在的,我不太敢相信他们的研究成果。几百个国家在一起比来比去,时间跨度,一般有从1950-1990 的,还有包括1949年前的,都用GDP 来衡量,实在太粗糙了。通货膨胀的因素考虑了没有,等等等等。。。 而且,这种结果能说明什么问题,对以后要民主化的国家有什么借鉴意义,都没有答案。
: ...................

--

作者: Faith    时间: 5-22-2009 18:56
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

那更应该浓缩
列个提纲 把观点摆出来 就可以了
有人和你讨论了 你再把论证贴出来

【 在 BlueOrange (喵呜) 的大作中提到: 】
: 嗯。
: 说实话,也没想到在这里和大家讨论学术。
: 也猜到这么一大片文章,没几个人能看完。 当时想的是,给有兴趣的人参考一下就行了。也没想和大家辩论。 我没有义务为这些政治学家辩论啊,又不是我自己的观点。
: 【 在 Faith 的大作中提到: 】
: : 英文摘要也行。
: ...................

--

作者: jprp    时间: 5-22-2009 20:08
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

blueorange 帖这篇文章主要是因为我讨论时提出了一个观点,民主和经济发展水平,技术水平不是完全相关的。

古典时代一个由自耕农或者自由市民组成的国家可以实行民主制,现代工业化的国家仍然以实行独裁。 这2个极端的例子可以印证我的说法。 我甚至猜想,在遥远的未来,独裁制度仍然有生命力。 然后简单推论是,tg的独裁制度经过完美微调,理论上可以活得很久很久,如果tg不犯很多错误的话。
blueorange帖她的作业,主要是介绍了政治学上的关于经济发展和民主关系的多种学术观点及其演变。 涉及到怎样衡量民主的问题,所以首先她要介绍“民主水平”的衡量标准。这种标准的设计有很大的人为的随意性,甚至用GDP来衡量经济水平也是非常粗糙的,所以基于这种数据的比较相关性也相当模棱两可,争论不休。
如果静态的比数据,会发现世界上中上水平的国家,人均GDP和“民主水平”成正相关,中上水平以下,比如低于4000刀/人,就没有那么好的相关性了。
我比较赞同blueorange列出来的一种学说,经济发展不会促进把独裁国家转变成民主国家,但会让民主国家保持民主制度。 今天的发达国家格局在十九世纪就已经定下来了,一开始就有民主代议,限制君权基础的国家才是今天的主要民主国家和发达国家。近现代由独裁到民主转变的国家,比如韩国,德国,其转变过程不是经济发展自发产生的,有相当大的外力参与。
经济发展是社会发展的一个维度,而从独裁到民主则是另外一个维度,如果没有主动追求对独裁制度的变革,独裁制度是不会自己崩溃的。经济发展了,tg会自动倒台走向民主
这是痴心妄想。








【 在 Faith (faith) 的大作中提到: 】
: 那更应该浓缩
: 列个提纲 把观点摆出来 就可以了
: 有人和你讨论了 你再把论证贴出来
: 【 在 BlueOrange (喵呜) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 嗯。
: : 说实话,也没想到在这里和大家讨论学术。
: : 也猜到这么一大片文章,没几个人能看完。 当时想的是,给有兴趣的人参考一下就行了。也没想和大家辩论。 我没有义务为这些政治学家辩论啊,又不是我自己的观点。
: ...................

--

作者: dikaios    时间: 5-22-2009 20:58
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

一张100分的考卷,其中一道5分的选择题中国做对了美国做错了,并不意味着最后得分中国就比美国高
【 在 ksyrium (ksyrium) 的大作中提到: 】
: 同问。在1900年的美国,妇女是没有选举权的;在2000年的中国,妇女是有选举权的,难道能说今天的天朝比1900年的美国更加民主?
: 【 在 Bullybird 的大作中提到: 】
: : 照你这个主权在民,美国在妇女和黑人有选举权之前也不能叫民主体制了?
: : (以下引言省略...)


--

作者: dikaios    时间: 5-22-2009 21:09
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

完全同意,除了有一处或许比你更激进:经济发展甚至连“让民主国家保持民主制度”也无法保证。20世纪初的阿根廷就是一例,经济水平位居世界前十,仍然在民主与独裁之间不断反复
【 在 jprp (极品人品) 的大作中提到: 】
: blueorange 帖这篇文章主要是因为我讨论时提出了一个观点,民主和经济发展水平,技术水平不是完全相关的。
: 古典时代一个由自耕农或者自由市民组成的国家可以实行民主制,现代工业化的国家仍然以实行独裁。 这2个极端的例子可以印证我的说法。 我甚至猜想,在遥远的未来,独裁制度仍然有生命力。 然后简单推论是,tg的独裁制度经过完美微调,理论上可以活得很久很久,如果tg不犯很多错误的话。
: ...................

--

作者: jprp    时间: 5-22-2009 21:22
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布


blueorange 文章里面有个7000美元线的概念, 大意就是过这个线就安全了, 这也是个说法,但是很人为。
拉美的民主退化很象罗马的共和衰落,平民精英的贫富分化,冲突逐渐突破了和平谈判的界限,然后就退到独裁了。

bluorange说她波兰老师认为,独裁是人类的常态,成功的民主制度才是异类。 这个说法很有道理,古典时代的民主制度都退化成独裁了,现代的发达国家的民主制度还没退化,是因为他们的制度设计得比古典民主完善。



【 在 dikaios (尋路得路 惡衣惡食) 的大作中提到: 】
: 完全同意,除了有一处或许比你更激进:经济发展甚至连“让民主国家保持民主制度”也无法保证。20世纪初的阿根廷就是一例,经济水平位居世界前十,仍然在民主与独裁之间不断反复
: 【 在 jprp (极品人品) 的大作中提到: 】
: : blueorange 帖这篇文章主要是因为我讨论时提出了一个观点,民主和经济发展水平,技术水平不是完全相关的。
: ...................

--

※ 来源:.一路BBS yilubbs.com.[FROM: 72.241.0.0]

※ 修改:.jprp 于 May 23 01:28:13 修改本文.[FROM: 72.241.0.0]

作者: dikaios    时间: 5-27-2009 12:22
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

“常态/异类”的说法太含混。从具体制度落实的数量上说,当然,即便当代社会里民主国家也是少数;但从观念层面上说,对民主的认同和追求已经,或正在,成为常态,这是古代与现代的根本区别所在。观念的变化会导致制度落实上equilibrium的移动:如果说古代社会在制度上的equilibrium是独裁,现代社会则是必然向民主发展了
【 在 jprp (极品人品) 的大作中提到: 】
: blueorange 文章里面有个7000美元线的概念, 大意就是过这个线就安全了, 这也是个说法,但是很人为。
: 拉美的民主退化很象罗马的共和衰落,平民精英的贫富分化,冲突逐渐突破了和平谈判的界限,然后就退到独裁了。
: bluorange说她波兰老师认为,独裁是人类的常态,成功的民主制度才是异类。 这个说法很有道理,古典时代的民主制度都退化成独裁了,现代的发达国家的民主制度还没退化,是因为他们的制度设计得比古典民主完善。
: ...................

--

作者: dikaios    时间: 5-27-2009 12:22
标题: Re: what is democracy and its relationsh
本文通过一路BBS站telnet客户端发布

“常态/异类”的说法太含混。从具体制度落实的数量上说,当然,即便当代社会里民主国家也是少数;但从观念层面上说,对民主的认同和追求已经,或正在,成为常态,这是古代与现代的根本区别所在。观念的变化会导致制度落实上equilibrium的移动:如果说古代社会在制度上的equilibrium是独裁,现代社会则是必然向民主发展了
【 在 jprp (极品人品) 的大作中提到: 】
: blueorange 文章里面有个7000美元线的概念, 大意就是过这个线就安全了, 这也是个说法,但是很人为。
: 拉美的民主退化很象罗马的共和衰落,平民精英的贫富分化,冲突逐渐突破了和平谈判的界限,然后就退到独裁了。
: bluorange说她波兰老师认为,独裁是人类的常态,成功的民主制度才是异类。 这个说法很有道理,古典时代的民主制度都退化成独裁了,现代的发达国家的民主制度还没退化,是因为他们的制度设计得比古典民主完善。
: ...................

--





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